Discussing Shame and Shamelessness with Pakistani Artist Misha Japanwala

Qissa: Misha, thank you so much for joining us.

Misha: Thank you so much for having me.

Q: So, quoting directly from your website, the body casts that you create blur the lines between fashion and fine art, clothing and nudity, freedom and censorship. Is it fair to say that they can also be seen as a shield, protecting the female body from the male gaze or even from male violence?

Misha: Absolutely. I've always felt like, especially in the act of wearing the pieces on the body, it really does feel armour-like. My pieces are cast in resin and often they have a metallic coating on top and, you know, when you wear it it really does feel like a kind of armour and I think that conversation is so interesting because there's such a juxtaposition and such nuance that comes with our bodies and what it means to live and exist in them. I think the casting of the body and displaying it exactly as it is with all of its flaws and imperfections and honesty is really just such a special way to document who we are.

Q: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I'm really interested because you describe yourself as an artist and a fashion designer - your work, as you said, can be worn. Could you speak a little bit about the crossover between art and fashion in your work? How would you describe yourself first and foremost? Would you say artist? Would you say designer?

Misha: Totally. Yeah, I think that's been pretty complicated for me the last few years because I feel like in order for people to digest the work, they want to understand exactly what category it falls into. I think having a title for me helps their understanding and that processing of information. I go back and forth a lot. Many times I'll refer to myself as artist and fashion designer. Many times it'll be just artist. Sometimes it'll be fashion artist! I mean, it's really all the things, but I don't think that title is extremely relevant, to be honest. 

I do think that something that's allowed me to create work that I felt is most honest and true to my process and who I am and what I want to say about the world is removing that categorisation and I think that's really allowed me to find myself in this space that a lot of people don't find themselves in. This like art fashion crossover is not a super common space to be. It's definitely been a little tricky navigating it because, as I mentioned earlier, I do think that not having a specific industry or category into which your work falls makes it a little more complicated in terms of where that work is being displayed, how it's being displayed, how people are purchasing the work and interacting with the work. And I do think that I'm still kind of figuring that out as I move forward in my career, but that duality of the work is something that's so important to me because I think it's such an important part of the conversation for the pieces to be worn on the body and for it to act as this like external second shell. That imagery is very, very important to me. At the same time, I think it's also really special to have an exact replication of our bodies displayed in fine art spaces for us to perceive and understand our bodies as artworks that are worthy of being part of those conversations. 

Q: Yeah, definitely. I think we're all multi hyphenated people. So to be artist-slash-fashion designer is perfectly acceptable and you can kind of wear whichever identity fits how you're feeling at the time. I get it.

Misha: Totally and you know my work really is about documenting people and their bodies and their identities and I think you can't pigeonhole or box or categorise a person and who they are. I mean that's impossible.

Q: Agreed. Your debut solo exhibition, Traces of Shamelessness, comprises a historical record of artists and activists in Karachi, where you were born. So why was it important for you to do that back in Pakistan as opposed to New York or somewhere else?

Misha: Being raised in Pakistan and the relationship I had with my body and the bodies around me - Pakistan as a physical place was so important in that development. I started thinking a lot about this craft of documentation, which is really how I've come to see my work in the last couple years, and I was thinking about who I wanted to document and why I wanted to document them. I also had this opportunity with my debut solo show to have it really be something that I wanted to do for a long time because I finally had the opportunity to do it, you know. I've been developing the story and the narrative of this show and collection for the last couple years, really, and it was always going to be physically rooted in Karachi and the people there because that's just so important to me. I really didn't even give it a second thought. It was logistically very difficult, dividing the process between Karachi and my life here, but it was so worth it.

it was always going to be physically rooted in Karachi and the people there because that's just so important to me

Q:  Carrying on from that question - your series, The Hands of Revolution, which is hand sculptures of artists, filmmakers and writers who are forging paths to a more gender liberated society within Pakistan. I'm interested to know what came first. Did you decide that you wanted to work with hands and then chose your subjects? Or did you decide that you wanted to celebrate and honour these particular people and then thought that hands seemed the most fitting?

Misha: There were different parts of the collection that were being developed simultaneously and what was most important to me was to really kind of walk into the gallery and walk into the space and look at this collection and have it feel like it was a historical record of all kinds of people doing incredibly shameless work in Pakistan. 

We did a collection of the larger body pieces with the photo shoot and then I had another aspect of it - which I'm sure will talk about - and then the hands which I just felt like… I think hands are so beautiful and expressive and I think that a person's hand illustrates the individuality of a person. I'm saying a lot of words right now. But I'm just trying to communicate the process of why I landed upon the hands. Hands have been a really special part of the body for me. They're a part of the body through which we really connect ourselves to the outside world and communicate who we are as people and go about doing the work that we do, you know. I thought that was why it was so important to kind of document the hands of all different kinds of artists and people who are doing such varied work. It's not specific to just a painter. I think the beauty of the people that are represented in this show is that doing shameless work is not specific to any certain format - people are going about it in such specific and unique ways and I think that's really what's beautiful about it.

Q: Absolutely. And they are really beautiful pieces as well.

Misha:  Thank you.

Q: So I was going to ask about the body casting and sculpting that you've done. Has that impacted your relationship with your own body? I mean, from teenage years through to adulthood that relationship changes for all of us, but how much do you think your artistic process has been a part of that journey for you?

Misha: It totally has. My first experience moulding and casting my body was a process that I went through during my thesis here at fashion school and that entire collection was all just of my own body. That marked a shift in, not just my perspective as an artist, but it really kind of changed the course of my life and career, you know. I think that's one of the reasons why I was so excited and honoured to be able to have this collection be about other people and the documentation of their bodies, because I think the process of that is so special. I think being able to see your body outside of yourself is really important. It's so difficult to put into words honestly because the experience of seeing that is just so unexpected and outside of what you would ever think.

I do still think, and this is something that I still struggle with a lot, when I see my body in a mirror and see my body as flesh, I'm very unkind to it. Being able to go through this process of creating a piece of artwork using my body and not changing a single thing about my body is this kind of rewiring where it's just like you are able to remove and sort through that noise and that narrative of unkindness and shame. That's just been such an amazing process. Just engaging in this process has taught me so much about shame and shamelessness. That's why the title of this show is what it is. Reclamation of the word shameless and what that really means has been, I mean, truly life-changing for me. Not just for me and how I move through the world, but also, how I understand the world and the people around me and our relationship to each other and what it means to move through the world in a way that is shameless, in a way that rejects external shame, and how beautiful that can be.

I think being able to see your body outside of yourself is really important.

Q: That's so interesting. I saw the name of your show and it all made sense in that context. But I hadn't thought, until you just said it, that when I think of the word shameless, the first thing I think of is female celebrities. Like the idea that’s perpretrated in the media of ‘oh she was so shameless’. And that is actually like the entirely opposite meaning!

Misha: No, exactly exactly. I think we've really reduced the word shameless to meaning something entirely different than what I think it should mean and what I think it really does mean. One of the big changes in understanding that term happened for me when, over the past few years, when I’ve been sharing my work, people have been really angered and disgusted by it. One of the insults, one of the most popular ones, is people will say I'm so shameless. They'll say ‘this is such shameless work. You are such a shameless person’. There's a few different ways of saying the word ‘shameless’ in Urdu language but one of them is a slur and that was being used a lot to describe me and my work. Eventually I kind of realised that if doing this work is something that makes me shameless, then I am so proud to be that, you know.

Q: 100%.

Misha: It really made me examine this idea of shame and shamelessness in other people and just how dangerous this concept of shame is. I'm really coming to see shame as a tool that people in positions of power use to exert their control over others. You know, I think shaming someone and placing your shame on another person is something that's really powerful and debilitating for that person. It’s really quite dangerous and I don't think we talk about that reality enough. So it's become so important for me to talk about in my practice.

Q:  Definitely, it's actually something I was going to ask because, as a female artist whose work is shared online, you have received abuse, as you've just spoken about. Our founder Maliha, I know, has experienced the same thing. How do you deal with that? And do you get a more negative response, the more ‘sexual’ a body part it is? For example, the nipples on display in your current show. Or do you think it's just being a female artist in the space and it doesn't really matter what work you're showing?

Misha: I think it's so many things, but I think one of the things that people find most threatening is seeing the body in as honest a way as casting depicts. I see that in, like, Internet censorship as well. The images I share become a problem when they show the detail of texture that's on the skin. You know? I think that is such a scary and dangerous reality. If our bodies are depicted in certain ways that are palatable or that are considered um, you know…

Q:  Appealing?

Misha: Exactly. Considered appealing to a certain person, that is probably a man in a position of power, that's when they get a free pass. But when it's a woman creating art about the body and creating these like, really truthful, honest, depictions of them in 3D, that's when it starts becoming a problem. I've thought about it a little bit. Well, I’ve thought about it a lot actually because it's what I do. I think a lot of it really comes down to the fact that the reason that people are so threatened and try to censor this kind of work is because I think they're threatened and are trying to censor the people to whom these bodies belong. 

Q: I watched a really fascinating video about online censorship. A photo of a male underwear model was put into the censor and it was like, yeah, this is fine, this doesn't need to be censored. They then put the exact same guy in the exact same pose, but they just added a bikini top or a bra on him. And it was like, nope, this needs to be censored. It’s crazy and just really interesting. 

Misha:  Right, right. Like the nipple for example and this kind of narrative of censorship and needing to be something that's hidden or removed from the Internet. I think that that is dangerous in so many ways, but, you know, one of the ways in which it's so dangerous is that it prevents us from having conversations about our bodies and really understanding our bodies. It's something that I really noticed in a collaboration I did last autumn with a Pakistani clothing brand called Generation. We did a video for Breast Cancer Awareness Month where I wore a breastplate and performed a self-exam and then audio was added to explain how to go about it and things to look out for and notice. Of course, a lot of people were really angry about that but something that was really eye-opening to me was that there were thousands and thousands of comments under that video that was posted. And there were so many people in those comments asking really serious health questions about their chests or their nipples. And I think the fact that they were asking those questions on a reel posted by a clothing brand on Instagram, and that being their only outlet for trying to get information as opposed to being able to discuss it with family members or feeling comfortable enough to go to a doctor, I think that’s really sad. It really illustrates the immediate physical health dangers of silencing conversations about parts of our body in this way. I mean it's life or death really. 

We really need to move to change how we speak about our bodies and stop eliminating our bodies from conversations and imagery and spaces that we’re seeing all across the Internet and that really is a reflection of our real lives as well.

Q:  Yes absolutely, that’s so important. And in terms of the negative comments that you've received yourself, how do you deal with it? Or how do you switch off from it all?

Misha: Um, some days are easier than others, you know? Like there's times when an entire set of people are really angry about my work. They will find a photo or find my profile or something and I'll get inundated with comments and it's really non-stop and it can be a little overwhelming to see an endless stream of comments and, you know, people are quite creative in their insults honestly. But at the end of the day I am grateful to have found this way of communicating through my artwork. I believe a lot of artists can relate to this, you're always second guessing yourself all the time and that's something I struggle with a lot. But in my core I know that what I have to say is urgent and important and I don't think people who are angry about the work will ever be able to take that understanding away from me. Also, I think it's important to note that I have a very supportive family, I have very supportive friends and community who create a network of safety and support that allows me to do the kind of work that I do and that's a really important factor for me in being able to be an artist and create the kind of work that I do.

Q: I'm really pleased to hear that you have this supportive network. Okay, so, moving onto more cheery subjects...

Misha: Yes!

Q: You've created work for many incredible musicians and artists - Cardi B, Little Nas X etc. Is there anyone in particular that you'd love to create something for?

Misha: I've been asked that question a few times and being able to work with celebrities is really exciting, especially for the platform it gives my work and the message I'm trying to communicate with people. I'm very, very grateful. This process of documenting people that I respect so deeply within my own community and Karachi and people in Pakistan - that's really been the most special project I think I've worked on to date - the most meaningful to me. It’s these kind of people that I think my work is really about at the end of the day. So when talking about an ideal person I'd like to work with, I don't really think there is one specific person. It's just continuing to be able to document people who I think have really important things to say. 

So when talking about an ideal person I'd like to work with, I don't really think there is one specific person.

Q: Yeah, that is definitely so important. Perfect. So my final question is actually in a similar vein - who inspires you, both personally and professionally?

Misha:  Sure. I think it's a pretty similar answer to your previous question. Shameless people inspire me to be shameless. It means a lot to look around and see people doing the work - doing the uncomfortable work - of rejecting shame and understanding the importance of that. Everyone who I moulded and casted for this show - those are the people that inspire me and inspire my work and it means everything to get to document them in my process.

Q:  Amazing. Thank you so much for your time, Misha. We’ve really loved having you on Qissa.

Misha:  Thank you so much. This was such a great conversation.